1187. Today, we talk to workplace communications coach and author Joel Schwartzberg about how to clearly and effectively get to the point, and he outlines how his clients use AI as a communication tool without losing their authentic voice.
1187. Today, we talk to workplace communications coach and author Joel Schwartzberg about how to clearly and effectively get to the point, and he outlines how his clients use AI as a communication tool without losing their authentic voice.
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| HOST: Mignon Fogarty
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[Computer-generated transcript]
Mignon Fogarty: Grammar Girl here. I'm Mignon Fogarty, and today I'm here with Joel Schwartzberg. He is a workplace communications coach, speaker, and speechwriter, and he was the senior director of strategic and executive communications for 10 years for a major national organization after holding senior communication and editorial roles with Paramount, PBS, and Time. And he is the author of a book that I loved called Get to the Point: Simplify, Sharpen, and Sell Your Message. Joel, welcome to the Grammar Girl podcast.
Joel Schwartzberg: Thank you so much, Mignon. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Mignon Fogarty: Yeah. Well, I am so excited because your book, Get to the Point—I loved the first edition, and now you have a new second edition out. So I can't wait to hear all the new stuff, but to help people who are newer to your work: so "Get to the point" sounds like good advice, but what does it mean specifically?
Joel Schwartzberg: It really means understanding, first and foremost, what a point is. I really came across this about three years into my public speaking training. I was training people to do all the stuff you would find if you Googled it or used AI—and looked up public speaking tips about gestures, volume, and eye contact. But what would happen is my clients would come back to me and I'd say, "Just so we're on the same page, tell me your point." And what they would share with me was not a point. It was not a proposal or an assertion. It was a topic, or a theme, or a notion, sometimes a catchphrase, sometimes a title, or a category.
And this was so foundational, because I truly believe if you don't have a point, there's no point in making a communication. I really dug deep into some research and into my own experiences to identify not only what a point truly is, but how to get to one in a very easy way that can be used by fourth graders as well as CEOs. So when I tell people to get to the point, I’m telling them to find your root argument, and then once you have that, then you can amplify it, you can sharpen it, you can broadcast it and champion it—but you have to get to it first.
Mignon Fogarty: So give me an example. What's the difference between a point and a topic?
Joel Schwartzberg: So, definitionally—I'm gonna to make up a word there, Mignon, you can check me on that—a point is a proposition or suggestion that you can prove with evidence, with data, with storytelling, and reasonability. We could dig up Aristotle; we could go through ethos, pathos, and logos; but you're making what we used to call in speech and debate an argument, an opinion that you want to convince people of.
But when you have a topic—and this is what people most often confuse points with—you can't argue that. And let me give you an example, if I said to you I was gonna talk about "podcasting," that's a theme or a topic. Because I'm not telling you if it is more popular than less. Is it going out? Is it coming in? What are the elements of a successful or effective podcast? What is the audience for podcast? I'm not giving you any kind of proposal; I'm just giving you a vague sense of it. And because of that, I'm not arguing anything. Even if I get to the importance of podcast or the future of podcasting or Mignon’s podcast, I’m not saying any sort of positive conveyance or negative conveyance. I’m not making an argument about it.
So when the first issue of the book, the first edition, the most basic test was what I called the "I believe that" test. And it’s very simple, and it has a grammar element, which is fun for the grammarians among us. Basically you take the words "I believe that" and you put it in front of what you think is your point. Let’s say podcasting here. And you ask yourself: Is this a complete sentence, or is it a fragment or a run-on? In other words, would this get a check plus from language arts teachers back in grammar school. So let’s put this to the test.
And then in the second edition of the book, I found another test that can really sort of tighten the screws on getting to the point.
Mignon Fogarty: Oh super! What’s the second test?
Joel Schwartzberg: Oh great, okay! When we talk about getting to the point, we talk about not burying it. So I like to bring out all the big ideas early. And like I say with a speech, it’s not like a movie where you’re going to spoil the ending if you bring it out early. So I’m thrilled to bring out the second test. This is called the X-Y test. And it’s just as simple. It reduces your point into an algebraic equation: And that equation is: if we do X, Y will result.
And you need both the X and the Y to have a complete point.
So let’s talk about a teacher who created a really innovative curriculum for her classroom. Let’s say it’s an AI curriculum. So she says "I created this AI curriculum.” And the result of that curriculum is more students from places in our state where they are not as privileged as other places were able to graduate. So this innovative curriculum made it possible for kids to graduate. Now if we just had an X, it would say “I created this innovative curriculum.” To which someone might say “Great, I can’t give you a medal, but why? What is the benefit of that? How are we all going to be in a better place because of that?" So that’s an X mechanism but not a Y.
If you have a Y and not a X that’s saying “You know what we ought to enable more kids to graduate, especially kids from underrepresented parts of our culture.” To which someone might add “Yeah, we all agree on that. We want to improve our graduation rates. But how? What is your proposal for change?" So you need both X and Y to really capture an audience. And I suggest that that kind of point with those kind of elements are more compelling and will move people to impact. Now impact is a broad word, so let’s break that out. For me, if you have a communication whether it’s through speech or an email or through a chat, if you do it well, the other person will feel, think, or act. If you can have one of those three things be the result, then your communication has succeeded. And what I’m saying is a point is the most powerful way to create that result.
Mignon Fogarty: So where do people tend to go wrong? Why don't they get to the point?
Joel Schwartzberg: I think we're used to speaking in terms of topics and themes. You know I go back to my middle school and high school classes and what was I asked to do. I was asked to write essays that "compare and contrast" two things, and that’s it. I’m just going to put it out there, and you all decide if it’s relevant or not or what my bottom line ideas are. Or I was asked to write a five-paragraph essay, fill these five paragraphs like such. I was never asked to have an opinion and prove it. Never in all my education. So I think our educational system in doom war, especially as I work with kids. I also teach 3rd through 7th graders in an after school program these ideas. And I’ll tell you the truth. I asked them “What is a speech? What is a presentation?” A presentation is a bunch of words I write, and then I memorize, and then I say them, period, stop. That’s to them. So I know that I need to change their ideas and their mindset. So that they understand that it's one idea that you support and prove so you convince the other person. But I go to conferences all the time where I see presentations that explore, that talk about, that have a dialogue on, and we see speeches even on TED Talks, where they say, "Let's talk about this.” “I’m gonna talk about this today.” What is that actually saying? Well, I'm going to talk about it and you're going to listen and, you know, hopefully with all this talk, some, you know, action steps or results will come of it. But, you know, my fingers are crossed because we're just talking. We’re just talking.
Mignon Fogarty: Do you think people are afraid of seeming pushy? Or something like that? , That they, they're afraid of having an argument. They do want to just explore and talk because it sounds friendlier?
Joel Schwartzberg: There may be a fear of that. I think there's something to that because when you're making a point, when you’re putting your opinion out there, you're taking a chance, right? You could, if you're saying that to a boss, you could be overruled. If you're in a terrible work environment, you could be shamed. So it is a little chancy, but that's what leaders do. And I don't mean leaders like somebody with a C in front of their title. I mean, everybody. If you want to come across in a way that gives the impression of leadership, you need to have an opinion. And what's interesting is I often tell this example, and I give this professional development advice. If you have direct reports and they will come to you and they will give you a status update and they're relying you on you as the boss to say, all right, here's what I recommend. Well, really the boss wants them to recommend. So the boss says, all right, what do you recommend? And then that junior person makes a recommendation. The more often the boss does that, the sooner that person will say, here's my status report and here's my recommendation. That's when they make a point, but they're taught to, they are developed to by the boss and that's how they move up, get promotions in leadership. But in every context, I think we've been trained not to make points. It's more comfortable not to make points. It's more comfortable not to give speeches at all. So we have to get over that hump and realize that not only is making points more effective, but actually it's easier than writing down 732 words and memorizing them.
Mignon Fogarty: Now I've always heard anecdotes help your point stick. Like how do you mix anecdotes with points? Like can anecdotes actually get in the way of your point? Like now I'm worried.
Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, you know, everybody talks about storytelling and they should. We're used to getting information and messages from stories. It's a very easy way to move stories, but here's the problem. And this is when they become an obstacle. I've always wanted to invent the word obstacular. Can you put a, there's something in the management that I always want to say obstacular.
Mignon Fogarty: They would have done that in the 1800s for sure.
Joel Schwartzberg: Probably, probably. Anyway, it becomes an obstacle when you are telling a story that's riveting, but not relevant. How do you do that? Or how do you not do that? You avoid that by saying words after your story. Now this may sound counterintuitive, but I say in a presentation, the most important part of the story is not even the story, but the part after the story where you say these crucial words, this story illustrates why we must. This case study is a great example of what happens when we, this example really proves what happens if we, and that's the purpose of a story. It is merely a vehicle through which our point travels, and it needs to be used strategically like that. So I'm all for stories at the beginning, at the middle, and at the end. Just make sure they are personal stories cause those are more effective than third person stories, although you could have examples, but most importantly, make sure you make them relevant. Don't rely on the audience to have to think about it and think, wait, how does this apply to me? That's your job as a communicator.
Mignon Fogarty: So I know the second edition of your book includes some, new information about AI. And when you said personal stories, I'm imagining people using stories that aren't personal that they got from AI. So let's talk about, you know, sort of what the new, the new information on that front is in your book.
Joel Schwartzberg: Right. I have AI authority, not because I majored in it in college so long ago, or because I even took that many courses. I've been to conferences where people talk about it, but really as a user, and this is honestly the best way to figure out how AI can best serve you. And I want to really put some mustard on those words. Best serve you. AI is a support. It's like you're using Grammarly or you're using spell check or you're using, you know, your thesaurus or stroke in white, however far back you want to go. It is a tool to support you, but not supplant you. It should always be a resource. But what I learned as I was using it and prompting and editing it, there are very particular flaws that it has. And I'm not talking about M dashes or the word Delve or the final subcategory being final thoughts, which I see all the time. I'm talking about patterns, patterns of inauthenticity, for example. If you read it and it doesn't sound like you, what do you do next? Well, first, you need to understand what sounds like you. You could always send up another prompt that says this doesn't sound like me. Here's a paragraph that sounds more like me. Can you adapt that voice? You could totally do that. But usually just reading it aloud or even better hearing it played back to you. MS Word has a feature where you can click it and it'll read back to you. And you could adjust the speed. I find it really, really useful. So I go through that step so I can hear it and I can understand, does this sound like me or not? Because the less information it has, the least authentic it would be. And then other things bleed out from that. I've seen AI text come out where everything was in the wrong priority, where what I considered the most important point was made the last important, point and I can't really blame AI. What does it know? So I need to prompt that ahead of time and say, hey, this is the most important thing. Make sure it goes first. Or, you know, I like to tell people you should use AI like you're feeding pasta through a pasta smasher or whatever that gear is that makes the pasta flat several times with new prompts each time. This doesn't sound like me. Reverse this and always second guess it. Because this is the really funny thing about AI. If you make a suggestion to it that something it did was wrong, it will almost always agree with you. And you think, wow, you agreed. How come you didn't say that the first time? So put it through that bread maker over and over again until you get to a good place. And finally, the last thing I would say is the last flaw is verbosity. It will always use more words to make your point than you need. And be aware of that. And prompt it: stay under this word count or try to be as brief as you can or something I like to always say, try not to repeat and be reiterative to repeat the themes or the words that I've said before. So through prompting and through careful checking of what comes out and by rerunning it through, you can make sure to avoid those, I call them Achilles heels of verbosity, of inauthenticity, of the things that can really get in the way.
Mignon Fogarty: Do you find with the people that you're working with, do you find that it is more helpful to them or more in the way?
Joel Schwartzberg: AI in general?
Mignon Fogarty: Yeah
Joel Schwartzberg: I find it's more helpful. I find it helps people be more focused. I find it helps communications be more organized. I find it improves clarity. But it's sort of like the 10 commandments of them. Don't let it write for you. Don't take an AI output and just put it out without checking it. Then you're asking for trouble. So it's really, you know, a collaboration. We need AI to help us be more efficient. AI needs us to sound more authentic and to actually have clarity that's connected to our priorities.
Mignon Fogarty: Great. Well, what else is new in the second edition?
Joel Schwartzberg: You know, here's the funny thing. When you write a book, you really never get a second bite at the apple. And you'll see it, you know, us writers, we're like, oh, I could have written that page so much better. Or that example, that didn't last over time. It's now totally obsolete. So when the publishers came to me and said they wanted me to do a second edition, and I said, does this mean I could rewrite it and do a full edit? And they said, yes, up to a point. But, you know, the most important thing I did beyond that second point test and beyond the AI stuff. I have a few more examples of where this takes place because more CEOs, for example, are communicating in other ways. They're communicating on internal networks that are sort of like Facebook, sort of like social media, but they're internal. They're making videos. They're posting on LinkedIn. So I talk about how that has expanded all the opportunities to CEOs. But if there's anything that made the most difference, it's really my going in with a fine-tooth comb, updating my examples, removing examples that were not as focused. And if I could put it all in a sentence, I think this version gets more to the point than the first one actually did.
Mignon Fogarty: Nice. Well, when people are writing across all, or speaking across all these different platforms, do you find that there are some where they're less likely to get to the point than others? Are they lured into verbosity by Slack or something like that?
Joel Schwartzberg: I think some of the video stuff, because of what we see, it inclines people to be more performative than they need to be. And some of that performance might be like a shiny object that gets attention, but it doesn't necessarily get penetration. It's just like a presentation where you tell a bunch of jokes at the start. Yeah, you have them laughing. But did that help you do your number one job, which is not, like me, think I'm a great public speaker? That is never the goal of a presenter. It's always, did I make my point? Did it get through to you? Did it make a difference in your life? So that's the one thing. The other thing, I just submitted an article just a few days ago to Toastmaster Magazine because I noticed that when my students in particular were writing out a speech or the beginning of a speech, and then they would read it, I would say, does that sound like you? And they would say, no. And we realized that when we write something, our brain uses a different voice than when we speak something. So that's why it's so integral when you write something that you're going to say, which a lot of people do, to hear it yourself and to ask that question, does this sound like me? Often what the research has found is that when we write something to be read, it is more professorial. It is a little more complex. It is a little more, you know, using big words, trying to impress. But when we just speak something, like I'm giving you why I enjoyed this particular horror movie, I'm not going to use those words. I'm going to be much more succinct. I'm going to use what some people call weekend words so that they're simple. Even though you might be a horror aficionado like me, I'm still going to keep it very simple. So that's a real gap that needs to be connected when people write to be spoken and then speak with their writing voice instead of their speaking voice.
Mignon Fogarty: Yeah, that's the word that always comes to my mind when you say it's perhaps versus maybe. People will write down perhaps, but they often say maybe.
Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, and I work with a CEO who loves the word iteration. And I said, when you're talking about the next stage in your financial or whatever you're talking about, do you use the word iteration? And he said, no. And that's a really good example of something we might write to be read but not speak to be heard.
Mignon Fogarty: Would you say that at your weekend barbecue?
Joel Schwartzberg: Exactly. Exactly.
Mignon Fogarty: Well, I love that your book is so focused on helping people get results to have impact, as you say. So the book, again, is Get to the Point. Joel Schwartzberg, where can people find more about you online?
Joel Schwartzberg: The best place they can get to me is through my website, www.joleschwartzberg.net. That's where I put my podcasts. I put the articles I write for Harvard Business Review or Fast Company or Toastmaster Magazine. It's really everything that I do relating to communication. And a lot of it is, as they say, open code. So I just welcome people to come there, learn more about the book, learn more about me, but even more so to get resources to help them be better champions of their points.
Mignon Fogarty: I love that. Joel, thank you so much for being here. For the Grammar Paloozians, we have a bonus segment. We're going to talk about how to write better email. So look for that in your feed. If you want to become a Grammar Paloozian, you can sign up at patreon.com/Grammar Girl. Thanks so much.
Joel Schwartzberg: Thank you, Mignon.