In addition to getting an ad-free version of the show, subscribers also get bonus segments for the interviews. In this segment, Ben Yagoda talks about "twee" (and twee pop), the two spellings of "gray/grey," why we have the "soccer/football" dichotomy, and more.
In addition to getting an ad-free version of the show, subscribers also get bonus segments for the interviews. In this segment, Ben Yagoda talks about "twee" (and tweepop), the two spellings of "gray/grey," why we have the "soccer/football" dichotomy, and more.
COMPUTER-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT
Mignon: Thanks. Well, let's continue the discussion. One of the words that really, I thought this was wonderful. So "twee" is another word that sounds really pretentious to me when people say it, but the origin of twee absolutely
Ben: If I remember correctly, it's an approximation of a little toddler trying to say sweet. Yeah. And it shows up in, in, in novels of the 1920s and thirties and then got established. And if you look at, uh, and so the, I was going to say almost always, but always used in a negative context that something's too sweet, too saccharine, too precious.
And if you Google it, probably 75 percent of the references are for the Scottish band Belle and Sebastian, who are, I have to admit, I've never listened to, but they are considered the height of twee pop.
Mignon: Twee pop. Who knew there was such a thing? Um, another one, gray. So there's, you have the two spellings of gray, gray with A is typically the American spelling and E is typically the British spelling. I've noticed that people tell me they think they're two different colors. People argue with me that they are not just different spellings, they're different colors.
And I thought that was new, but in your book you say it goes way back, people assigning
Ben: Essentially, you as the conduit, um, are still getting that. Yeah, um, there, uh, so, right. American spelling from Noah Webster days when he differentiated, tried to differentiate American spelling from the British was G R A Y. Uh, G R E Y was always more common in Britain. In the age of not one off Britishisms, The G R E Y has become popular, possibly thanks in part to Grey's Anatomy, which is spelled that way, and Grey Poupon Mustard.
But, yeah, um, there were claims throughout the years that, um, I'm trying to come up with a quote. Um, okay, yeah, I found a 1925 book called "Popular Superstitions" that says there's been an attempt to make a difference between "gray" with an E and "gray" with an A. Many artists claim that the old spelling should only be used for mixtures of black and white, while, uh, GRAY for those tones where some other color has been introduced.
So, you know, I think anyone can sort of make anything they want.
Mignon: Yeah, that is so specific.
Well, when people come to me today and say that I've not detected any pattern. Some people will say they think "gray" with an A is a warmer color. Some people will say they think it's a cooler color. Like there's no pattern. People just seem like in their own
Ben: Yeah, that rings true to me. They want to, they want there to be a difference, and they just come up with the best answer. Yeah.
Mignon: Yeah. It's amazing. Um, another one. Oh, um, why don't you talk about soccer?
Ben: Yeah, um, it's, it's a fascinating story and British people, so as, as most of your listeners, as you know, and most of your listeners probably know in the game that Americans call soccer in Britain now is commonly referred to as football. And American football with the, you know, guys in the helmets and shoulder pads.
Um, they make sure to call that American football and the very pretentious Lisa Simpson on the Simpsons calls it American football. Cause she's such a, uh, so much so what she is. But the interesting thing is that "soccer" was originally a British term when the game was invented in the late 1800s, there were two forms of football.
One was played at the rugby school, and that was termed "rugger," later "rugby." And that's that game. And the other game is what came to be known as soccer or football, and it was known as association football, that there was this league called the association. And then the word "associate," the Brits love to make abbreviations and slangy words.
So "association" became "soccer." And in those early days, it was called soccer, um, quite frequently. And even up to 1970s and eighties, there were, you know, football heroes who would write their autobiography that's called something like my life in soccer and and it didn't um raise an eyebrow both terms were used then because of the association with the united states soccer fell off there and um and and football became the exclusive word in Britain, but soccer for a long time was quite acceptable there
Mignon: Amazing. And it's, it's an
Ben: Yeah,
Mignon: for association.
Ben: becomes soccer.
Mignon: Wild. Wild. And that's great. And, um, "vet." Another one. I mean, that's been in the news a lot lately because we, people are vetting people for other positions and I was surprised to find that it comes from "veterinary," like veterinary, going to the veterinarian.
Ben: Just looking up the history there. Um, Yeah, so, uh, you know "veterinarian" is a old, old word for the kind of doctor, and by 1862 was abbreviated to "vet" like we use today. Um, the uh, Only in the 1890s was it used as a verb but only used in About going to the animal doctor, uh, animal could be vetted, go into the vet and examine.
Then it took on this Figurative meeting of examining and going through their past like, uh, like Kamala Harris just did for her vice presidential candidate. And again, it's one of those words that people are surprised to learn that a, it's British origin. And, uh, be that it hasn't always been used.
Mignon: Yeah. That surprised me a lot. Another one was "over the top," I was surprised to read that that has a military
Ben: Um,
Mignon: and the British
Ben: Yeah. Uh, just looking that up. Um, yeah, it, it started in world war one and it was a term used for literally climbing over the top of a trench and going into battle and took off in America. There was no fewer than six popular songs in World War One era. Um, called over the top, including one that was called "Over the Top Goes Sammy." And again, over the 20th century, it became a term common in British for excessive.
Uh, the initial meaning was kind of enthusiastic and more positive. Then it took on this negative meaning, became popular in Britain. And then in the last 30 or 40 years, Came over to America, just a familiar pattern. Um, you know, uh, word pops up, gets established and then comes over here, starts slowly, and then you can chart this out with Ngram viewer and then, and then, um, goes up dramatically and over the top is one of those for sure.
Mignon: Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like in, you know, we've got Ginger Spice, and there are other cases where pop culture seems to have played a role in that transition, especially, you know, years ago when there wasn't the internet, where you were just seeing people writing stuff online and all sorts of American English, British English, you know, "amongst" is one that jumped out at me. Like, I know you and I both have encountered our students, when I used to be a professor, our students using "amongst" far more than we or our compatriots ever did. And you said that maybe Saturday, Saturday Night Live and Jon Stewart had a hand in popularizing it,
Ben: maybe a head. I think maybe they more, I mean, Jon Stewart loves it, uses it all the time. And then the Saturday night live was the Mike Myers, uh, Coffee Talk or "talk amongst yourselves." It was his catchphrase. But again, that's one of those words where there is literally no difference in meaning between "among" the traditional one and "amongst," and "amongst" it is a true Britishism.
It's not a faux British ISM like divisive. Um, but yeah, I just teaching. Um, I started teaching in the early nineties and maybe 10 years after that early two thousands. It just, popped up and got more and more and more popular, uh, amidst as well. Um, yeah, whilst I was going to say, I think I had, you know, like a birdwatcher, I was very proud to get, I think, two whilsts in my career.
And that, that's just so, um, Unusual and you know, I don't know why I don't know why it became so popular. My students weren't trying to sound like British people. Maybe they were trying to sound more intellectual or um because often they would use bigger words instead of a smaller word so a longer word instead of a shorter one that means the same thing might be attractive, but I honestly don't know what the reason is
Mignon: Mm-Hmm. I wanna finish up, I have a couple, two more things. Uh, first I want to hear about "bumbershoot" because I absolutely thought that was British, and I grew up in Seattle where they have the Bumbershoot festival. Yeah. But you tell me it's not.
Ben: I, it's kind of my problem, my favorite, uh, section in the book. And it came from my. Uh, education on it came from I wrote early on, when I was doing this blog, I wrote an article for Slate about the phenomenon. And I said, I was making the point that there were all these British terms that were pervasive over there.
And as I said to you earlier, unlike our image of these very few things that the stage Englishman says, like, uh, the telly and the lift and bumbershoot. And then I got this wave of responses that said British people don't say bumbershoot. What are you talking about? We don't say that from British people and I looked into it and sure enough Um, even though you and I and kind of every American I asked about it thought that it was a britishism.
It really wasn't and isn't. Um, and, you know, it's kind of a long tangled tale of how it came to be known as that. And in this case, I'll say, read the book if you want to find out, because it, it's, it's rather complicated. Yes, exactly. Thank you. Yeah, it's, but it is not a Britishism.
Mignon: Wild. And then to finish off, this isn't, it's funny because this isn't a word things necessarily, but the British versus American date format, you have that in your book. And once I saw it, I was like, yeah, what is
Ben: Right, when we abbreviate, what's, what's today, uh, August 15th, in America, when you write it in, in, in, in digits, you would say, um, 8 15 2024. And the Brits, and pretty much the rest of the world, do it 24 15 2024. Excuse me, uh, what they do, uh, uh, 15, 8, 24 day, month, year, which makes certain amount of sense because, um, it's going from the smaller to the middle to the big, but, um, we do it the other way.
We're starting to. Move a little bit. If you look at your passport and other State Department documents, um, you find the British date format, uh, coming up more and more often. I will say that, um, people around the world really are mad at Americans for doing it this way. They think it's really stupid and wrong.
And at this point. That post that I did about that on the blog has gotten the most views of any other by far. It's like 70,000 or something like that. People are very, very into that.
Mignon: Yeah. And what is the answer? Why are, why
Ben: You know, I've as I recall, it was sort of a little bit of an arbitrary decision that started Americans that way, the way the, the, the, uh, postmark was designed, and it just sort of got established, and then once something gets established, it's, it's hard to change, people get used to it.
Mignon: Yeah. Especially if it's on the postmark, that's, it's a very official sort of like legal language can last longer than big legalisms. Wonderful. Thanks so much, Ben. So
Ben: Fun.
Mignon: Well, we are here, we're finishing up with Ben Yegoda, author of Gobsmacked! The British Invasion of American English. Um, tell people again where they can find you and
Ben: Yeah. BenYagoda.com is my website. And if you want to find out more, a lot more about Britishisms, the blog is NotOneOff Britishisms.com. And the podcast is called "The Lives They're Living" and on all the podcast platforms.
Mignon: Wonderful. Thank you.
Ben: Very much.