1019. In this ad-free subscriber episode, Jonathan Small, author of "Write About Now," shares what he's learned about the common struggles writers face throughout their careers. His book highlights stories from bestselling authors about their beginnings, the risks they took, and how they handled early rejection. I was especially surprised by the stories of shockingly bold decisions that launched more than one successful author's career. If you've ever wondered how authors get a foot in the door or get through failure, this episode is for you.
1017. In this ad-free subscriber episode, Jonathan Small, author of "Write About Now," shares what he's learned about the common struggles writers face throughout their careers. His book highlights stories from bestselling authors about their beginnings, the risks they took, and how they handled early rejection. I was especially surprised by the stories of shockingly bold decisions that launched more than one successful author's career. If you've ever wondered how authors get a foot in the door or get through failure, this episode is for you.
Find out more about John and his book at writeaboutnowmedia.com.
🔗 Share your familect recording in a WhatsApp chat.
🔗 Watch my LinkedIn Learning writing courses.
🔗 Subscribe to the newsletter.
🔗 Take our advertising survey.Â
🔗 Get the transcript.
🔗 Get Grammar Girl books.Â
🔗 Join Grammarpalooza. Get ad-free and bonus episodes at Apple Podcasts or Subtext. Learn more about the difference.Â
| HOST: Mignon Fogarty
| VOICEMAIL: 833-214-GIRL (833-214-4475).
| Grammar Girl is part of the Quick and Dirty Tips podcast network.
| Theme music by Catherine Rannus.
| Grammar Girl Social Media Links: YouTube. TikTok. Facebook.Threads. Instagram. LinkedIn. Mastodon.
COMPUTER-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT
Â
Okay. So now we're here with a smaller group of subscribers, and Jonathan, hi, subscribers. Um, yeah, you know, you're, so you ended up writing about parenting when you were a 20 year old single guy. So that's the sort of the beginning of your origin story. How did that happen? How did that happen?
How did that happen?
Jonathan: You know what? That was crazy. I, when I got out of college, I didn't, I kind of knew I wanted to be a writer, but I also kind of maybe thought I wanted to be an actor or maybe I wanted to, I had no idea. I knew I wanted to do something creative, but you know, unlike some people who just know what they want to be from the time they're eight, I was not that person.
So I was, I had a temp job at a, um, at a, at a, uh, parenting magazine, just as a, as a, um, as a receptionist, right? I wasn't even had nothing to do with, with writing or editorial. I was just the guy who basically greeted you when you came in the door and called somebody to come out and to get you. So it was just a temp job.
And I have been doing it for a few weeks and I was making good friends with some of the The staffers because they were just, you know, chatting with me by the water cooler kind of thing. And one day, and I had told them I had done some writing, but not really a lot. I'd written for my school newspaper, et cetera.
One day, one of them comes running out and she says, John, John, I need a huge favor. Um, we have an interview that we need you to do. Nobody can do it on staff. Everybody's busy, but the guy's going to [00:32:00] call in a half an hour and we need you to do the interview and then write a story based on the interview.
And I said, okay, okay, well, who's the interview with? And she said, Oh, George Carlin. Are you familiar with George Carlin? And I was like, Uh, and I just was like, uh, yeah, I idolized George Carlin. I've listened to all his records and you know, it was like, and she said, okay, good. I'm glad you know who he is.
You won't have to do research. And she kind of leaves me with like, and it turned out that George Carlin was the reason he was calling a parenting magazine was because he had just. I got in a role with this show, Thomas, the tank engine, and he was going to be the conductor. And early on in episodes of Thomas, the tank engine, George Carlin is the conductor anyway, called George Carlin, uh, or he called me, you know, had to wing it.
I mean, I had like 15 minutes to prepare this interview and, um, we did this interview and I wrote a story based on the interview and they liked it a lot. And when an editorial assistant, which is sort of the lowest level position became available at child magazine where I was working, uh, I took it and suddenly.
I was working as a 22 year old single guy for a parenting magazine, uh, and I had to become [00:33:00] an expert in all things kids and parents, which it would take me, I don't know, uh, 20 years later, not 20 years, but I, I didn't even have kids myself until it was 36. So I, I knew nothing. I was completely blind to the world of parenting, but I was a quick study.
I had amazing mentors there. And I basically made that job. I figured out a way to, you know, what my, what I perceived as my strengths were in that job and make myself useful for child. So I rev, you know, I didn't feel like I had to be a parent to review children's books and to review children's movies.
And, and so I may, I sort of took over the entertainment column eventually. And then, uh, I decided, Hey, it would be really fun to take trips around the world and stay at different hotels. I'm going to become the, the, the, the parenting travel, the child magazine travel editor. And I went and wrote about hotels that accommodated kids and were great for families, et cetera.
So kind of made my way. And that's how I got my foot in the door of magazines and writing. It was [00:34:00] completely random. Hadn't, you know, people were like, did you go to journalism school? Did you like, no, I had no idea that I wanted to be a journalist. And this all And, and honestly, a lot of the people that I work with also had no idea.
I think a lot of times we sort of fall into these things. And, uh, again, it's, it's those unexpected, uh, opportunities that sometimes present themselves to you in life that you have to sort of take when, when they're availableÂ
Mignon: Right.
Yeah, no, I didn't plan on being a podcaster. You know, thatÂ
Jonathan: Right, right,Â
Mignon: Yeah, and I get the impression from reading your story that these were really the go go days of
magazine writing. It was a different time.Â
Jonathan: Such a different time. My God, I, I, I, I, it was really a golden era. I mean, I, I remember, you know, as I kind of moved on in my career, I went to Glamour Magazine. You had mentioned at the top of the show, this is when I was the Jake columnist, there's a column in Glamour called Jake, where Jake gives advice, uh, to women about the way guys think.
And, um, You know, glamour was like this huge at that time. Glamour was like, I think the second largest women's [00:35:00] magazine in the world. We would have, if we had to work overtime, we would have car services. This was in New York city. We'd have car services, uh, come and pick us up and take us home. They had a, uh, incredible cafeteria that was, uh, That was, uh, like had like sushi, you know, it's just, it's kind of the way, like, I guess, Google and some of these like Facebook was, you know, now it's like, that was the magazine business back then it was, it was fancy.
It was the jobs that all the young people kind of wanted to have didn't pay anything. So, uh, that was the one, the one catch, but it was certainlyÂ
Mignon: But writers back then made more, right? They
might not have paid much to work there, but the writers made good livings.Â
Jonathan: Yeah, that is so that has
been a real tragedy to me. It's like, I feel like writing is the one at least writing for magazines and websites has been something that is really depreciated in value since I, you know, over time, I mean, I was making at my peak, I think I was making 250 a word.
Um, when I went freelance and those were when I was that that would be when I was writing for magazines like Glamour or, um, you know, uh, [00:36:00] TV Guide paid really, really well back then. Um, there were certain magazines that were known for paying really well. Of course, the New Yorker always paid really well. Um, but now my God, you'd be lucky to get 25 cents a word.
Um, it's sad. It's very, very sad that the value of writing, at least for, for journalists writing specifically for newspapers, magazines has gone down. But The flip side of that is there are, there are a lot more opportunities now for writers to be published and and make money. There's, you know, used to be the only way to make money was to have a magazine by your or a newspaper by your piece.
Now you can have subscript Subscribers on substack. You could have YouTube channels. You could do what we're doing, you know, uh, a podcast with premium memberships. I mean, there's so many different avenues to, to monetize what writers do now. So it's a, so there's a, it's a kind of both sides of the coin, but I do miss the days when I could just sell a story to a magazine for two 50 award.
Those were theÂ
Mignon: Yeah. I know people who actually made livings doing that. [00:37:00] Um,Â
Jonathan: Yeah, I did for a little while. I had made a living doing that in the
early two thousands. Yep.Â
Mignon: It's almost unimaginable now. What's your origin story forÂ
Jonathan: know that was, I had taken, um, a digital marketing class, um, because I felt like I didn't know enough about digital marketing. I didn't know, I was pretty good at, you know, creating content, but I didn't know how to get people to consume it. And so I'm going to, I'm going to learn how to do this. And one of the projects was to create some sort of vehicle to market yourself on the digital.
space and I decided to create a podcast, um, called right about now that was going to be all about ghost writing. And it was all going to be all about why you should hire me as a, as a writing coach and a, and a right. I mean, this was like, this is years ago. And, uh, so that was, it was a, it was a pro it was a project, like a school project and the original, the first episodes of right about now, we're really mostly me talking to, um, you know, kind of writing experts about how to be a better writer, et cetera.
And. [00:38:00] Then I started transitioning and started interviewing some of my friends about their careers. And that's when the origin stories kind of started coming in because a lot of my friends, you know, from the business had really great stories about how they got involved in, in magazine writing and, and, and, and all sorts of different kinds of writing.
And then it just, It, it kind of took on a life of its own. I, I, it became the thing that I looked forward to doing the most every week. Like I, even though it was a school project originally, now this was something that I, that I really wanted to do, like I was excited to do. Um, and I feel like when that bug comes, uh, you know, you don't get that feeling that often.
Um, you know, where you, especially when you're doing something, you know, on a professional level. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna embrace this and, and try to really. And try to really make more out of this than what I originally had intended. And, and here we are. So I, I make my own podcast, but I also help other people with their podcasts.
I produce a bunch of podcasts for other people too. So podcasting, thank goodness it's, it came around cause it had really good timing. Cause it's, it's, um, [00:39:00] it's been, it's been very, very helpful for me. And also just makes me excited to get up in the morning. Cause I love working onÂ
Mignon: Yeah. Okay. And this is an important question. Does your professor who gave you that
assignment know that you're doing the podcast?Â
Jonathan: does. She was like my third guest. Um, totally knows she came out. She did a whole thing about it. And she's, I think that she's excited that, that she was the inspiration behind thisÂ
Mignon: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure she would be. You know, I, I, I, I was a professor for a few years and I assigned some podcasts and kids came up with so many great ideas and I'm like, you're
gonna keep doing this. Right? And, and none of them did . So
Jonathan: I know a lot of people give up on it. I always tell my clients, cause I have a lot of people, you know, first time podcasters, it's a marathon. Uh, it's not a sprint. It takes a long time, but the, and the people who kind of end up. being successful, oftentimes the people who kind of stick it out, um, because it's, you're, there's going to be a lot of, a lot of, a lot of, um, uh, you know, oh wow, I only got five more listeners this week or [00:40:00] wow, I lost 20 listeners.
Now I only have my parents listening, you know, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of ups and downs, but so you have to really love it.Â
Mignon: it's a lot like writing a novel. I mean, I was impressed that,Â
Jonathan: it reallyÂ
Mignon: that also, I, you know, I was on the writer's board for a while, for Nano Rmo, and I was just thrilled to read about the writer who did nano rmo and then just kept writing every day from then on, you know, because that's what.
Jonathan: I feel like those are the people that really discover like, this is what.
I love to do. It really is hard to keep writing when you don't love it. Right. And I do tell people like, if you don't have a passion for writing it, it is going to be tricky to keep it going because there's going to be a lot of days where it's just you and that computer screen and uh, you have to at least feel like I'm enjoying this inÂ
Mignon: Yeah. like podcasting, you have to enjoy the process as well asÂ
Jonathan: Yeah. I enjoy, and I do, I don't know about you, but I just really enjoy, I enjoy everything about it. But I mean, I. Sometimes I just like the, I mean, a lot of people give their editing to other people and I understand that cause it's, it's labor intensive, but I, I even enjoy editing it a lot of times because [00:41:00] to me it's like therapy.
I just like to, I like to just listen to people's voices and make them sound better. I don'tÂ
Mignon: No, IÂ
Jonathan: I think, you know, I'm a, I was also a DJ. I was a DJ or still I'm a DJ like as a side hustle. And I think combining the sound element and the editing and the, but also the journalism part of podcasting is sort of everything that I like kind of wrapped up into one, one medium.
Mignon: Yeah. No, I like editing too. I have an editor, Nathan Sims, but every once in a while, you know, I'll send in my audio and I'll be like, I just edited it this week. WasÂ
Jonathan: about when you're editing yourself, you learn a lot about your vocal tics and your, um, you know, like, I'm like, Oh my God, why do I say, um, so much or why do I, but I did have a woman on the podcast recently who said that when you say, um, it's a sign of intelligence.
Mignon: Friedland?Â
Jonathan: Yes, you've hadÂ
Mignon: Yeah. She writes for Grammar Girl all the time and she's actually a goodÂ
Jonathan: Oh, that's awesome. You know, Valerie. Yeah,
Mignon: She's great.
Jonathan: that's wonderful. Yeah. She's great. And she, she's a big fan of theÂ
Mignon: Yeah.
Don't we? Yeah, she talked about that on the show. It was great. Well, [00:42:00] the last thing we always have the guests do is give book recommendations. So what are, what are some books that you've been, you know, especially enjoying lately that you would recommend
to the audience?
Jonathan: Yeah. That's a great question. I'm always reading a lot of things at once and I don't even know why there may be they're recommended to me, um, right now. And I don't believe, I can't believe I never, knew about this book, but I'm reading a book called Blood Meridian, which is by CormacÂ
Mignon: Yeah.Â
Jonathan: And, um, I, I don't know, I'm kind of a little bit of a sucker for Westerns.
Um, I maybe just being a Jewish guy growing up in New York City, like it's, it couldn't be further from my experience. So I'm like, this is kind of, so I love a good Western. And so, but it's hard to find really good Western. A lot of them are super corny. Um, so my favorite book of all time is Lonesome Dove.
Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian is an incredible Western that takes place in the sort of 1850s and follows this, you know, poor kid, um, who kind of finds himself in the Wild West with a band of, of ne'er, ne'er do wells. And it's just written so beautifully and [00:43:00] the characters are so amazing and it's very dark.
His books are always very dark. Um, but I've just been enjoying like every minute of it. I'm really excited. I found it. Um, I, There's I maybe I'm just going through a period of my life where I'm doing a little self discovery, but there is a book and I'm listen, I'm the last person to recommend like a spiritual book, but this book has really been a game changer for me and it's called the untethered soul.
It's by Michael Singer and I've recommended it now to a few people and people are like. Dude, that book is really good. And I was like, I know, right. And if you can get past the title, I feel like the untethered soul sounds like a, I don't know, the kind of book that I would never read, to be honest with you, but somebody had recommended it to me and I, and I picked it up.
And I, um, I find like every page to be like so enlightening about. Um, it's really a lot about. bad negative thinking and sort of watching our thoughts and being being very mindful of like the kinds of things that we allow, um, ourselves to think that kind [00:44:00] of that kind of, um, get us off off track and and and really put us like in a kind of bad place.
And it's and it's just it's so it's Um, simple, his, uh, writing. And so, but it's, it's been really meaningful for me. Um, and I just revisited, I'm kind of like going to this phase where I'm revisiting some classics and I, and I, and I just started reading great expect, well, I kind of just finished great expectations by Charles Dickens.
And I didn't, now I get it. Like I get why people love Charles Dickens so much and why still like his books. Um, you know, like have stood the test of time because he is just like he's funny and his characters are unbelievable and it's just and it's just everything about the way he writes is like makes you have to keep turning the page and kind of wondering what's going to happen next.
And I think because a lot of his books were serialized anyway, they were, they weren't really books. They were like, in magazines and you had to read each week. So they kind of had that, um, kind of before television, before movies, that [00:45:00] kind of, um, suspense at every, at the end of every chapter. I really, I'm really enjoying it.
It's actually inspiring me to write a, I probably shouldn't say this publicly, but kind of like a modern day, great expectations. Um, because I like the, I like the story and I feel like you could adapt it for, for the modern day. So that's one that I've, that I've been, that I've been really into, but I've got, I have so many in my, on my, um, my cue, like sitting by my desk.
It's, it's insane. Uh, so I, you can bring me back next time and I'll probably have 20 other recommendations for you. I'm, I, there is never enough time to read books. That's why I have to listen to half of them on my walks during, during theÂ
Mignon: I do that too.Â
Jonathan: I don't know if you do, you do that too, especially cause we interview
writers.
So sometimes you have to, if I don't have time to read their book, I'll listen to theirÂ
Mignon: Right. Usually I end up reading the books for the shows like this, and then the things I want to enjoy and listen to myself for
pleasure, I usually listen to them as audiobooks
because it's the only time I have
Jonathan: It is fun. What do you listen? You probably tell people all the time, but are you any
book that I should read that I haveÂ
Mignon: oh, yeah, no, I [00:46:00] don't. But um, so, you know, we were talking about books that you don't, the kind of books that you don't normally read and you, you read one for some reason. And um, I did that recently with a Kristen Hanna book. So those are, those are. Those are not typically the kinds of books I read, and so I was especially interested in her section in the book because I'm taking an audiobook narration course, and David, the instructor, suggested that I listened to the, this particular narrator who now her name is
escaping me, but she, she nar, she narratedÂ
Jonathan: was the,
Mignon: book, the book was called The Four Wins.Â
Jonathan: Oh, Yeah, I knowÂ
Mignon: so I, I mean, I didn't look, I just, I pulled up Audible and I was looking for that particular narrator and I got this book by Kristen Hanna because it was the first book I saw from that narrator and my God, it was incredible and I was, I probably sobbed like four times,
you know, and
Jonathan: She's she's very famous for being the Kleenex. They people are like, God damn it. Kristen Hannah. I've always got to have a box of tissues whenever I read your books. I know her books are really tearjerkers. I'm reading a new one called [00:47:00] the women. And again, I'm probably the same way as you. I mean, those books are not written for me.
They're typically her books are written for women. They're about strong female characters. I find her books really moving and she's got good characters. She's a great storyteller. Yeah. She's really good atÂ
Mignon: yeah, so I find myself recommending it to people in the worst way. I'm like, I read this book,
it's wrenching, you know, which is not, I don't know, in my mind that.
Jonathan: And it's hard to write a dust bowl book because one of the greatest books of, you know, You know, all these books that were written by, um, Steinbeck, uh, take place. Like she had to fo a big act to follow with the dust, writing about the Dust Bowl for four. You know, that. And, and she did. I thought she did aÂ
Mignon: Yeah.
And I learned a lot of things about the Dust Bowl I didn't know, too. So it was, it was, it was interesting and, and very emotional. So yeah, that was my recent
book that way outside of my normal sphere ofÂ
Jonathan: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's important to do that every so often. Um, and the way to, I mean, you know, obviously if somebody recommends it, it's nice, but sometimes I'll just go to a bookstore and just pick up a book that I wouldn't [00:48:00] normally. read because it just and just sort of start reading them and be like, yeah, I do actually kind of like this and I'll take it homeÂ
Mignon: Yeah. Wonderful. Good. Well, those are.Â
Jonathan: I've been getting into fantasy, like fantasy writing, like what, like a never, but I like, I like aÂ
Mignon: Oh, I love fantasy. Who, what, what have you enjoyed recently?
Jonathan: Um, uh, Oh my God, this is terrible. IÂ
Mignon: I'm not putting you on the spot.
Jonathan: I know I can't remember. It's just, um,
Mignon: Brendan Sanderson. I his,Â
Jonathan: see this is good.
I can take, I can take, um, I can take recommendations for you because I don't know enough about.
About what I was a lot of things.Â
Mignon: I first read, yeah. I first read his Mistborn book, which is a standalone. He does a lot of series now, but Mistborn was one of his standalones at the time and I loved it. It was one of the earlier fantasy books I read.
Jonathan: I'm looking, I'm just looking at my books now. This is terrible because you can, can you edit this part?Â
Mignon: Yeah. Oh yeah, for
sure.
Jonathan: V. E. Schwab. Do you know her? She writes, I think she's more like, [00:49:00] but, but, but, um, who is that woman? She's, she's like the biggest one rightÂ
Mignon: Is it T. Kingfisher,Â
Jonathan: no, it's the
one she's written so many and you go to the bookstore now and like every book is written by her.
And it's, it's a kind of a world where, um, there's humans and there's like kind of like more, well, they're all like this, like outside of the human world, there's like these fairies that are kindÂ
Mignon: Seanan McGuire? Yeah.Â
Jonathan: Why can't I, I'm not texting. I should, anyway, we're going to have to totally cut this part.
Um, anyway, I'm looking through my books now, but anyway, I do. Oh, Sarah, Sarah J.Â
Mignon: Oh, I don't know that. I don't know her.Â
Jonathan: The Court of Mist and Fury. I just picked up her book, Sarah J Maas. She's written so many fantasy books. Um, I love them. And you know what I really also liked is, and I can't now, I'm not going to be able to think of a book.
The woman who writes Greek mythology, she kind of makes Greek mythology. Um, she makes fictional books out of Greek, Madeline, Madeline. [00:50:00] Sorry, I'm like the worst. This is I'm not a badÂ
Mignon: There are so
many. There's so many books. You can't know them all. Even the mostÂ
Jonathan: I know. How
do you know them all especially when you read so
many, um, I love Madeline Miller's books. Madeline Miller writes books, um, where she takes like amazing Greek mythology stories, but then she makes them. I know she modernizes them and makes them really compelling, like reading for now. And it's not really fantasy, but it's, uh, she wrote, she wrote a book called Circe, um, which I just could not put down.
I thought it was so good. And those are the kind of books that like, I don't even know why I picked that book up. I think it's because it was popular on TikTok. And I was like, well, I want to see what all the hubbub is about this. And I was like, Oh my God, this is really good. Like,Â
Mignon: Oh my God. You've been influenced by, by book. talk.Â
Jonathan: I know BookTok got me.
Oh boy. Well, I mean, there are some good, I mean, my daughter is very influenced by BookTok and as long as it keeps her reading, I'm happy with that. She's 14. So I just love that she likes to read.
Mignon: Yeah. Oh, no, that's great. No, it's, I think it's a good thing. I think it's, it's interesting. It's like a lot of authors feel like they need to be on [00:51:00] there because they hear about book talk, but really the thing that makes books go wild
on book talk is the book reviewers, not the authors themselves. SoÂ
Jonathan: It's not the authors. Yeah, you have to, I have to get somebody on booktalk talking about right about now to get, to get any, maybe I'll have my daughter do it. ThatÂ
Mignon: yeah,Â
Jonathan: count, but yeah, you have to have, but I do love, they have these
booktalk videos. I, and I don't, I'm not a big consumer of Tik TOK, but I, I, I guess it falls on my algorithm because it knows what I like.
And there's these people that will say like, okay, here are the five of the best fantasy books I have ever read. And then, you know, and then they always have the books in their hands and I always will watch those videos. Cause I love to, I love hearing people's opinions about, about what to read.Â
Mignon: Yeah. I've seen Cersei on tons of best books, uh, lists of best books. It's, I should,
I, I, I, I don't know why IÂ
Jonathan: it's
just good. I don't again, I know it's normally not a book. I mean, again, I like, again, maybe it's historical. It's historical. It's, it's, what is it? Greek mythology fiction. I mean, it's like a funny genre that I wouldn't normally be. I'm not that interested in Greek mythology and yet I didn't [00:52:00] really, maybe I am more interested.
Now I understood what the Greeks like so much about their stories for all those years. They're pretty great stories with great characters. So, you know, if you can make it come to life for a modern audience, that's pretty, that's prettyÂ
Mignon: Yeah, very. Well, Jonathan, thanks so much for being here again this week. Um, but and above all, we want people to remember your book, Write About Now. And I realize I should say it's write, W R I T E, like writing. So, Write About
Now by Jonathan Small.
Jonathan: Thank you. Yes. And thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Again. I'm a big listener. Love your, love your show and, and all that you put out there in the world.
Mignon: Well,
thanks so much. I'll talk to you again.Â
Jonathan: Okay, Awesome.Â